Bonus episode - Yes, Minister
Civil servants can’t answer back. They can’t respond to criticism. So it’s not fair to criticse them. But once a year, the top civil servant in Wales, does get the microphone. The Senedd’s Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee holds an annual public hearing with the Welsh Government’s Permanent Secretary so that they can be scruitised on the annual accounts. And as we discussed in the second episode the accountability of the civil service in Wales is a fuzzy concept.
The Permanent Secretary is both the CEO of the Welsh Government and the principal policy adviser to the First Minister. As part of the UK senior Civil Service Sir Andrew Goodall is answerable to the Head of the UK Civil Service, the Cabinet Secretary, for “the leadership of the departments”. But is answerable to the First Minister for the delivery of the Welsh Government’s priorities. And in his role as the Principal Accounting Officer the Permanent Secretary has a formal line of accountability to the Welsh Parliament for the use of public money. As in Westminster it’s a task delegated to the Public Accounts Committee.
The annual session in front of the Senedd’s Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee is a low-key affair. As we discussed in the episode on scrutiny the committee sessions often follow a path set out in advance by the researching and clerking team. But it ain’t necessarily so.
The Senedd Members can ask anything they want under the very broad heading of getting ‘assurance’ that the Welsh Government’s budget is properly spent.
On 19th February this year, 2025, Sir Andrew Goodall appeared with three other senior civil servants to face scrutiny on their accounts. And one committee members decided to take some of the themes raised in this podcast as the basis for questioning. Rather than try and unpick their answers I thought it would be interesting as a bonus episode just to play you the full 20 minutes of the exchanges.
It will give you a sense of what Senedd scrutiny can be like.
And what senior civil servants are like when challenged by politicians.
So I’ll step back, and save from introducing each new speaker, I’ll let you listen to it unfiltered.
The questioning is led by Plaid Cymru Senedd Member for Carmarthen East Adam Price, a former leader of his party. His initial questions were asked in Welsh so they are translated into English. Unfortunately there is no translation available for the civil servants answers.
Adam Price
I would like to start just by asking if you have had the opportunity to listen to the podcast of Lee Waters, The Fifth Floor. I think that's what it's called. In the podcast, there are two episodes that relate specifically to the civil service. I'm not sure if you've had the opportunity to listen to that podcast, have you? It doesn't matter if you haven't; I can summarise them in just a second. At the end of the podcast on the civil service, the former Minister makes a number of suggestions, and I just wanted to ask you to give your opinion on those suggestions, which specifically relate to civil service workforce. In the first one, he says that we need to challenge the policy or the traditional approach or idea that staffing in the civil service isn't a matter for Ministers. Do you have an opinion on that statement?
Dr Sir Andrew Goodall, Permanent Secretary – Welsh Government
In terms of our location within the UK civil service, staffing is a matter for the Permanent Secretary of each of the departments, so it retains, of course, a matter in terms of the operations of the organisation. I think there's a danger of that feeling as though Ministers are disinterested in that. Of course, they want to know that they have the capacity available to discharge and deliver their priorities. In a very blunt way, Ministers do have oversight of our staffing arrangements in the sense that they, through the annual budget process, set the budget that we operate within and we have to cut our cloth accordingly and make sure that we're able to sponsor that. There are ways in which, in an appropriate manner, Ministers will be involved in some staffing decisions that are taken. So, I know from personal experience in Permanent Secretary appointments, but certainly in director general appointments as well, Ministers have an involvement—appropriately so—under the Civil Service Commission arrangements, to be part of that process, but they don't ultimately make the decisions about those staffing arrangements as well. So, it would be a very significant change in the way in which we work, but certainly, in the context of how we work as part of the UK civil service, that wouldn't be something that is a decision that can be made here by us, currently, in the Welsh Government, if we are within those arrangements at this stage. But I think that we are intimately involved with Ministers, of course—policy officials support them on a day-to-day basis on a range of areas and 99 Ministers are very interested in teams that they would describe as their teams, because that's the way in which we've established our group structures as well.
Adam Price
I'm grateful to you. I know that these questions can raise complex issues, but if we could have succinct answers, that would be good. The second recommendation he makes is that we need a new framework or a new agreement to deal with situations relating to poor or low performance. Do you accept that? What's your response to that suggestion?
Dr Andrew Goodall
Yes, we have performance management arrangements in place. There are always opportunities to improve that. Again, that performance management context is set by working across the UK civil service, and I think we do use those arrangements. We have moderation arrangements in place, so it's not just simply about a single conversation between a line manager and their own staff, so we try and make sure that we sponsor that as well. And we do call out difficulties around performance in the organisation. We have feedback from our staff about how that feels on the other side, through the staff survey. And speaking openly about what that represents, it tells us that we do have performance management systems in place. The general experience of staff will be that that is appropriate and supportive, but there are areas within the organisation where performance management is not working as we would wish and, therefore, we are focused on those processes as well. So, I wouldn't want to give the impression that we don't have performance management in place, but one of the areas that we're looking to further improve and transform, under the Welsh Government 2025 aspect, is actually to make sure that our performance management approach feels more robust and appropriate, again.
Adam Price
Could you give us more information about the divisions or parts of the Government where the performance management systems haven't been working as well—you just referred to those?
Dr Andrew Goodall Dom, do you want to pick up some general reflections on the staff survey results, for example, which do give us variation across the organisation? And what we try to do is make sure that we're focused on those areas to support managers when they need support, but also to make sure that we're putting in additional corporate support, where needed.
This is Dom Houlihan, the Welsh Government’s head of HR as Director, People and Places
Dominic Houlihan
Yes. There are a number of different lenses through which we can look at performance management. On the base level, which is an individual having 100 objectives with their line manager and having those conversations, we've seen improvement in our people survey scores in the way that colleagues have clear objectives, have the skills to do the job, and feel valued and have those conversations. So, each of those areas have seen increases of between 2 and 3 per cent over the last year. One of the areas that we're focusing on as part of Welsh Government 2025, going forward, however, is to review the performance framework and to make sure that colleagues can have better quality conversations. I’m not in a position today to say, because I don’t believe this is the fact, that there is a single area that is an outlier. As with all organisations, performance management often depends on the capability and capacity of line managers, and that’s an area that we’ll focus on. However, if we’re also looking at dealing with performance, and I use that in its grandest sense, there are other measures that we’ve introduced over the last year, including our corporate scorecard, which looks at a range of effective measures of how well we’re delivering, particularly on the people and places front, as well as our wider framework approach as well. So, at a micro level, in terms of an individual and a line manager, my focus over the next 12 months will be supporting and encouraging better quality conversations, which is a bit of a cliché but actually works, to make sure that all colleagues have clear objectives and we are able to tackle areas of underperformance where there are areas of underperformance.
Adam Price
Did you commission a report recently into the culture division that did highlight a finding that the performance management systems were not working sufficiently?
Dominic Houlihan
I’m happy to pick up the question. The culture division report is from, I believe, 2022 or 2023, so it was before my time. But, again, where we have pockets of practice across the organisation where there are a multitude of issues happening—whether it’s individual line managers being unable to have conversations or whether, for example, and our anti-racism plan makes it clear, we still have variances in staff experience across the organisation—we may use measures like a neutral assessment to understand in more detail what’s happening. So, yes, there was a report commissioned, I believe, by my predecessor in conjunction with the business area to look at the very specifics of what was happening. Since then, there has been a number of measures put in place and we’ve seen improvements in the people survey score, for example, in that particular area this year. I myself speak with our social partners, trade unions, about those pockets as and when they arise to make sure there are timely interventions. Adam Price Can the committee see a copy of that report?
Dr Andrew Goodall
I’m certainly, Chair, happy to consider that. However, if I could just be open with the committee members, when these reports are commissioned, they’re done so in an anonymous manner in order to protect the confidentiality of staff members who are participating in that process. That gives them protection to, if needed, speak out. I’m just a little concerned about committing to that today without being able to check back on those principles of it. Our main concern about that is if these reports end up not being anonymous or confidential reports, it means that, in future, when there are issues, we’re not going to have staff who are willing to participate in those arrangements as well. But, because of the seriousness of the issue and the way in which the Member has asked, if I could just go away and look at what our process may be perhaps to give some assurances and highlight some of the areas as a minimum. But I would really like to be able to protect that staff in future can approach us in a confidential manner.
This is Mark Isherwood, a Conservative Senedd Member for North Wales and Chair of The Senedd’s Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee
Mark Isherwood
Can I just interject, if I may? I understand that a leaked Welsh Government internal report setting out the results of the survey that Adam Price refers to in the culture division noted, and I quote, staff condemnation of the alleged lack of ‘real performance management taking place’ within the Government, meaning that ‘managers who may not wish to have difficult conversations can avoid them and therefore staff who are not performing "get away" with it’. Staff apparently also felt ‘there was no sense of strategic long term planning’, and there was ‘a widely held view that ministers’ expectations are not being managed’. How do you respond to that?
Dr Andrew Goodall
We take very seriously the views of staff in any individual areas, and we had a process in place to respond to that and handle it accordingly as well. As Dom has outlined, irrespective of the confidential nature of this area, when there is a need for us to go into individual areas—. We employ about 6,000 members of staff, we’re a large organisation, and there inevitably will be areas that we need to approach, but we do try to do so openly and we try to do it in social partnership with our unions as well. So, as Dom has said, what is at least pleasing in respect of the latest staff survey results, and we received them in autumn 2024, is an improvement not least in that particular area that is reflecting that staff are feeling supported.
Mark Isherwood
What was the response rate?
Dr Andrew Goodall
The response rate for the whole—?
Mark Isherwood
To the survey.
Dr Andrew Goodall
For the survey, for the whole organisation, I think this year it was in the 60 per cent—
Dominic Houlihan
Sixty-nine per cent, I believe, so, over 4,000 responses. And our people survey score for this year is amongst the highest that we've received. So, yet again, it went up to 67 per cent. Across all of the survey scores, we saw a positive increase in 93 per cent of the areas, and of the areas in which we didn't see an increase, either they remained flatlined or the lowest decrease we received was 2 per cent. So, there are some positive indicators that we're on the right path, through Welsh Government 2025, through looking at our values and through looking at our HR and other arrangements, et cetera. But, as I outlined earlier, one of the key areas that we want to focus on in the next iteration of Welsh Government 2025 is our performance management approach, and making sure that we go back to basics around having quality conversations with objectives across the organisation. Our framework already allows us to do that.
Mark Isherwood
Can I just clarify, then, obviously, an appraisal is meant to be a snapshot at a particular point in time, so to what extent is the performance management process you either have already, or you're anticipating streamlining into the system, part of a process rather than an event?
Dominic Houlihan
So, our current process is to encourage individuals, or to require individuals, to have regular check-in sessions and to agree what the objectives or the aims are over whatever period is required for that particular role. I think, if I'm absolutely frank with the committee, one of the things that, maybe, we've lost sight of perhaps is the quality of data that we can get out of the system to make sure that those conversations are happening. So, there is something around going back to basics, around making sure that we are recording, monitoring and understanding the quality of conversations that are happening across the organisation, but our current framework does encourage individuals—does require individuals—to have regular ongoing discussions, and not to leave it as a momentous one-year event, or twice-yearly event, where you sit down and suddenly talk about the last six months. It's supposed to be an iterative discussion that happens as and when things occur. Again, in the people survey score, there were some positive signs that, actually, management is helping colleagues to understand how they contribute to the organisation's effectiveness and objectives, and that performance is being evaluated fairly. However, if you were to look at the civil service average, these are areas that I think all Government departments typically struggle with, and so there is more that we need to do, which is why we recognise, I recognise, that it's a core part of our work, going forward.
Mark Isherwood
I'm glad you're getting there. I was doing that with my staff 30 years ago.
Adam Price.
The report said that the division is consistently described as in chaos and survival mode. I appreciate that this was commissioned, and this situation described in the report was before you joined the organisation in your current role, Mr Houlihan, but the question to you, Permanent Secretary, is: how did it get this bad without senior leaders within the civil service knowing about it?
Dr Andrew Goodall
We use the staff survey information when we are seeing it through both data and through experience—that's when we step in. Back in 2021, which was when, as I recall, it happened, there were steps that were taken at that time, recognising that there were some concerns happening in there. We also try to make sure that we are reviewing, in overall terms, the staff survey across time, to know what are the changes that were put in place in the organisation, and we also use other information within the organisation that allows us to spot problems as well. So, we are working with our unions on the one hand, and we have network arrangements in place with our staff networks, which are also another avenue as well. So, we did step in to support that in a very different way, and, hopefully, have come out with improvements, but, in general terms, we do try to use the staff survey to demonstrate that there are improvements. Even from the UK civil service side, we are, at the moment, seen as one of the better departments, where we're performing well against a number of categories as well. But, if you're going to perform better, you need to follow through on the concerns that inevitably will exist in a large organisation, and step in as well to support that.
Adam Price
It says that the overwhelming view expressed was that both training and development are not priorities for the Welsh Government. That's a failing not just within this division, surely. That's a failing right across the whole of Government, if that view expressed overwhelmingly was a correct one.
Dr Andrew Goodall
It may well be a general failing. We track our learning and development feedback from our staff in the organisation as part of the staff surveys. Actually, that's an area that has improved over the last 10 years, and we currently have got our highest level that we've achieved in that time. We're currently, in learning and development terms, ranked as the third out of 20 UK civil service departments as well. Again, that's not to introduce any kind of complacency about this. I think there's much more that we can do. But, from a more general position, we've really targeted learning and development as part of the staff survey work over the last three years in particular, and I think we are seeing a response and a reward from that from the way in which our staff are responding as well. So, I'm happy to outline some of the measures that we've taken. But it's a very active area for us to continue to support the learning and development of the organisation as well.
Adam Price
The report referred to burn-out, stress levels among staff, and it specifically referred to a long-hours culture, not helped by back-to-back meetings and excessive screen time. Do you accept that that is a valid criticism? It was also referred to by Owain Lloyd, the former director of education of the Welsh Government who left to go to local government—he said in that podcast that I referred to earlier—that it was partly because of people contacting him. Your Microsoft Teams or whatever you use says you're online, and then people think, ‘Oh, I'll just pop another meeting in.’ Do you accept the criticism that your staff have expressed in this report, and others? And what are you doing about it?
Dr Andrew Goodall
I absolutely accept the concerns about workload and the pressures that our staff are under in the organisation. The fact that we worked with our unions to produce a health, safety and well-being strategy was absolutely focused on actions that would take place in that. I think the ‘always on’ culture that is described there emerged for probably different reasons. In the pandemic response, there was, of course, an enormous switch in the way in which staff were working, in terms of remote working on the one hand, but, at the same time, knowing that we were putting in all of the hours that were necessary. And I am concerned that, as we came out of the pandemic response, some of that has become a learnt behaviour for the organisation, and I think we need to help staff to be able to switch that off, appropriately so. You'll have seen in our corporate risk register that we've actually retained our concerns for our well-being of staff as a very high risk for the organisation as well, because we do need to call it out and do something about that as well. And it's why, in terms of right-sizing the organisation, what we're trying to make sure is that we don't just enhance and exacerbate those pressures as well. So, I do accept those concerns, but I also think that we are making progress on what we can do about that, and the manner and the ways in which we work are things that I think are within our gift to change.
Mark Isherwood
Can I just comment? We've only got 33 minutes left and we're barely a third of the way through our anticipated questions, so, please, if everybody could be as concise as possible.
Adam Price
Difficult issues and complex ones to go over in such a short time. But, look, one of the other issues that was covered extensively, both by Ministers and former civil servants, in the podcast that I referred to was the issue of a need for cultural change and to create a more nimble civil service. There's a sense that was conveyed that the civil service at the moment seems more set up to create reasons and obstacles why you can't do something, rather than finding a way of making them happen. I'm paraphrasing, but I don't think I'm misrepresenting what was said. The National School of Government was meant to be one of the solutions to this, to create a less risk-averse, more entrepreneurial and more nimble civil service, and yet, a bit like One Wales public service, the idea has been there, and the idea has been around for 20 years as well. Where's the progress?
Dr Andrew Goodall
Well, just to comment on the general position of how we are more agile, again, I accept that there is more that we can do to be flexible. I think there is a need for us to genuinely look at whether the things that we're tackling as the Welsh Government are the immediate issues that reflect our functions right now, rather than the whole journey of devolution over 25 years or so. We do need to keep revisiting that. We've taken on an awful lot more responsibilities, from law making to extra responsibilities after the EU exit, so we have accommodated quite a significant degree of change over that time. But I also think that we have gone through some very extraordinary times, showing the agility of the civil service. Whilst the pandemic goes into the background somewhat, 80 per cent of our staff during the pandemic were actually geared to the pandemic response itself, which is a really significant way of flexing the organisation. We've had examples that we've needed to step into in a very different way. The Ukraine response that we put in required agility, the enhancement of legislation. We accommodated co-operation agreement principles in ways of working that I think showed agility as well. But I think there's a danger of feeling that the civil service remains as fixed points. So, absolutely, we do need to change. I think the Senedd reform happening around us and the way in which the Senedd itself will be composed differently is going to require us to change also, and we do need to step forward, I think, in a different way. Tim.
This is Tim Moss, one of Welsh Government’s Director’s General and outgoing Chief Operating Officer
Tim Moss
It was very clearly demonstrated when we had our Welsh Government awards just a few months back the level of things that are delivered and the great creativity and agility that does go on, but at the same time recognition that there is a lot more we can do. And if you look again at the priorities that we've set within Welsh Government for 2025, for this year, they're around improving our processes, our data, our systems. They're also, then, around a culture of continuous improvement, and also looking at things like how we can drive more efficiency, looking at our governance to make sure it's appropriate and risk based, and also, actually, where we can increase empowerment for our leaders and our teams. So, there's more we can do, without a doubt, and that's why they're very much within the priorities that we're setting for this year. But let's not forget there's an awful lot of really great stuff that does get delivered day in, day out.
And that’s the annual scrutiny session on the Welsh Government’s accounts. Separately the Permanent Secretary is held to account by the First Minister in weekly bilateral sessions. But we don’t get to witness those, because they take place on the Fifth Floor
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